Cost of establishing a tram system

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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Polaris v 12.8.2010 14:30

Thanks for your replies.

I'd also like to ask the following:
1. Price of Modernized KT8D5
2. Price of Skoda 10 T
3. Price of Inekon Skoda 03 T
4. Price of 1km line of any particular tram line in Prague or other city, which was constructed by using BK panel technology technology. We want to use this as an example.

Thanks!
Polaris
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Založen: 27.7.2010 17:13

Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod kruťák v 28.7.2010 20:02

Zvlášť když jedna Georgia je anglicky Gruzie :D
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kruťák
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Založen: 23.2.2010 0:24
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Jabberwocky v 28.7.2010 19:42

Není Georgia jako Georgia :devilsmokin
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Jabberwocky
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Založen: 27.5.2005 9:53
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod XSC v 28.7.2010 18:52

Petrpes napsal:Co pa v USA plánují koupit nějaké wany, že se ptají na spotřebu a cenu :)

Jako bonus by jsme jim mohli přidat nějaký T3M nebo T3SU, ať si američtí šotouši užijou...
No, Tbilisi je ale v Gruzii, ne USA. :lol:
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Petrpes v 28.7.2010 17:20

Co pa v USA plánují koupit nějaké wany, že se ptají na spotřebu a cenu :)

Jako bonus by jsme jim mohli přidat nějaký T3M nebo T3SU, ať si američtí šotouši užijou...
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Petrpes
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Polaris v 28.7.2010 12:49

Oskar: Thanks for the report.
Jenki: Thanks for your reply. I understand that my questions have no straightforward answers whatsoever, as the costs depend on many factors, as well as negotiation with suppliers. However we would like to know very approximate evaluations, maybe even for only one particular tram route in Prague, that we could present as an example.
Jenki and 7105: Of course, I agree that advantage of trams is their convenience for public, not the costs - that's why we want to have tram in Tbilisi. We already made a presentation about tram advantages in transportation, energy consumption and environmental issues but politicians are expecting from us to tell how much does all these cost, so we want to provide some even very rough estimates, of course with comment that the numbers are taken from other cities, and Tbilisi numbers may vary from them a lot.
Polaris
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Založen: 27.7.2010 17:13

Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Oskar v 28.7.2010 7:13

Jenki: Very nicely written. Thanks 8-)

Polaris napsal:4. How much electric energy is consumed by T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus for 1km?
You can use Prague public transport company's annual report (page 72) as a clue. Common value is around 3 kWh per wagon-kilometre. As it depends on many factors (terrain, number of stops, regenerative braking), actual consumption may vary, say ± 2 kWh/wagonkm.
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Oskar
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod 7105 v 27.7.2010 21:33

I think the advantages of trams aren't in costs...
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7105
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Založen: 30.4.2008 20:48
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Re: Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Jenki v 27.7.2010 20:53

1. Cost of T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus wagons
See "Ostrava" discussion.

2. Cost of constructing 1 km of tram line by different technologies
It depends especially to "man-hour" and "machine-hour" value, which is differrent all around the world. Only the rails and screws itself costs about the same worldwide. Construction costs can vary up to 500% more due to "unerground" problems (gas & water tubes & cables under the streets) or due to traffic necessities (intersections or streets too small - requires rebuilding - the costs are going higher and higher). If you don't know exactly the proposed tram system map there is no way to say the price. Than ask construction companies, not tram enthusiasts.
For orientation try to visit web of any new tram system in the USA (Portland, Seattle, Washington D.C., Tucson...), find the prices and divide by 3.

3. Cost of constructing electric feeder system for 1 km of tram line. The same as point 2. The cupper wire costs the same worldwide. The workers not. Also the regulations vary (insulation requirements, wooden poles yes or not, possibility of re-using older material from railways, pole holders on buildings yes or not...). Sorry, I can say no value.

4. How much electric energy is consumed by T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus for 1km?
However I know this value I can say no answer :
a) I can not place this value to internet
b) this value vary due to the line profile and number of stops (hilly line with many stops = 50% more energy consumpted)
c) this value is for nothing. When you run the streetcar system the energy price is not calculated like at your home (kWh * price = costs). You have to start very hard fight with energy suppliers - you will have different rates for workday, free day, also for day or night hours, rush hours, extra rates for exceeding of so called "15 minutes maximum", also there are rates for energy reserved for you in the system which was not consumpted etc. It is a fight. Not a calculation.

5. What is the exploitation resource of T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus in years or kilometers?
Exploatation costs vary due to :
- type of depot (air conditioned modern hall or tracks in grass on open place)
- type of maintenance system (we repair each stupidity or "it runs, let it be!")
- type of maintenance workers (engineers with osciloscopes and proffesional tools or drunk guy with hammer and screwdriver)

Finally : forget the costs. At first you have to know the cost will be BIG BIG BIG and you have to explain to your politics theese costs will help them to win the next elections (this is TRUE worldwide) and part of this cost will remain in their pockets (percentage vary worldwide). When the politicds say YES they will find the money. That's reality. Sorry :)
Jenki
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Založen: 28.4.2009 8:54

Cost of establishing a tram system

Odeslatod Polaris v 27.7.2010 18:26

Hello, Sorry for writing in English, but I don't speak Czech, unfortunately...

I'm from Tbilisi, Georgia. Tram system in Tbilisi that had been operating since 1904 was abolished and dismantled in 2006 :( As for now, the city government has realized that the serious transport problems can not be handled only by adding bus routes and a new alternative is needed. Construction of tram system can solve many issues, but this alternative is still not under serious discussions. I represent a small, but active group of citizens that try to convince the government in tram advantages. We already met with representative of the city council and he promised us help in organizing a presentation before the city council about possible development of tram system in Tbilisi. Now we are working on the details of the presentation and collect information.

We would like to calculate what the approximate costs can make for launching the tram system almost from the scratch, including rails, feeders, depot equipment, wagons etc. Namely at this point we would be happy to know the following:

1. Cost of T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus wagons
2. Cost of constructing 1 km of tram line by different technologies
3. Cost of constructing electric feeder system for 1 km of tram line
4. How much electric energy is consumed by T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus for 1km?
5. What is the exploitation resource of T3R.PLF and Vario LF plus in years or kilometers?

Thanks!
Polaris
Uživatel
 
Založen: 27.7.2010 17:13


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